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Post by sameen on Sept 19, 2005 9:47:40 GMT 1
Just heard this morning from BBC. Just wanted to know if everyone was safe, and also to ask where is the best news agency to view any updates on the story.
Is this the Embassy facility on the campus?
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Post by Graham Amiss - Bosmere Travel on Sept 19, 2005 13:05:39 GMT 1
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Post by Peter Ellis on Sept 20, 2005 9:50:05 GMT 1
It looks as if the locally employed Croatian post room chap received minor injuries to his leg. It's still a mystery as to who did it. Possible issues are Gotovina and EU admission.
It always irritates me when Gotovina is referred to alongside mass murderers like Mladic and Karadzic, who as a matter of policy, murdered thousands, when Gotovina's alleged crimes were more heat of battle during the American orchestrated Operation Storm. Harris killed more civilians when he ordered the RAF to bomb civilian areas during WWII.
The EU issue is an odd one. Presumably we'll get in sooner or later, although some slight delay is no bad thing for the property business as it is the eventual hope of it that fuels prices and an extra year works in our favour.
On the one hand we have the opinion polls suggesting that only a minority of Croatians want to join and general UK feet dragging possibly because they would rather have a stable Croatia on the EU border than the unstable Bosnia which they would have if we were inside the EU.
Shades of the old Military Zone of the Austro-Hungarians!
On the other, the Sanader government is keen to push ahead with EU entry and does everything in its power to ensure it. One hopes they know more than the rest of us!
Personally I fear for my prsut, kobasica and other locally produced delicacies, whose traditional production would probably be banned by the EU in favour of the sort of factory food that just made TESCO 980million profit but didn't do a lot for the tastebuds of their consumers and even less for their wallets!
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Post by Sasha on Sept 20, 2005 16:59:19 GMT 1
Dear Peter,
'Heat of battle' is an insult to my hard-working extended (Croatian Serb ) family once-living in Krajina that lost its 4 members during Gotovina's Oluja. The youngest one was two years old girl burnt in her own home by Gotovina's forces. However, I still love Croatia. It has changed, it's beautiful, very European, safe, welcoming and I'm always glad to be back.
Do you think we should leave politics and crimes out of this great forum?
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Post by Peter Ellis on Sept 20, 2005 17:43:11 GMT 1
Ok. I did wonder when I wrote it. I usually leave the politics to the other forums. I just wish that woman would show as much interest in the perpetrators of atrocities like Srebrnica. Attacking Gotovina is stirring up nationalism here unnecessarily, just when everyone was working together more. Going after him is not going to bring anyone back and the living need to get on with their lives without wondering if it will all happen again as a result.
Drop me an email Sasha. My wife's cousin is another Sasha.
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Post by Sasha on Sept 21, 2005 12:05:43 GMT 1
Hi Peter,
How many will listen to the truth when you tell them? Sadly, this is very much the case throughout the former Yugoslavia. After all, a monkey never thinks her baby's ugly.
Best Regards,
Sasha
P.S. Are there any indications that a potential instability due to Gotovina case and delayed EU talks could affect a property market in Croatia? Do potential buyers ever voice their concerns about political stability?
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Peter on a different PC
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Post by Peter on a different PC on Sept 21, 2005 13:37:58 GMT 1
I don't think so yet. The Brits are really the last nationality to rediscover Croatia. The ones coming now are the ones with a more adventurous spirit and they arrive expecting something still a bit risky and are pleasantly surprised to find that, despite its regular inclusion in press reports as being Eastern Europe, it is actually Western Europe and less risky than back home.
It is far safer walking down a street here than it is in London and your car is infinitely less likely to be broken in to. Once they see how cosmopolitan and laid back it is here, they relax a lot.
Property prices will continue to go up. They'll go up even faster as we get nearer entry as the more cautious souls pile in as well. The delay will just stretch it out. We are still cheaper than comparable EU countries and not just for property.
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Post by paulday on Sept 26, 2005 11:30:13 GMT 1
Peter,
It is for the ICTY Court in The Hague to determine whether "Gotovina's alleged crimes were more heat of battle during the American orchestrated Operation Storm" in the same way that it will determine whether Radko Mladic and Radovan Karadzic were "mass murderers". All three have been indicted for allegedly committing war crimes and it is for a court of law to determine their respective guilt.
The Croatian government - like the Serbian government - have an international obligation to do all that is within their power to bring these alleged perpetrators to justice. If Croatia had genuinely done so over the past few years then it would not have seen its' EU entry process draw to a (hopefully temporary) halt.
Gotovina's name is mentioned alongside Mladic and Karadzic because all three have been indicted for more than 4 years and have to date evaded international justice. This may well irritate you, but the refusal of these individuals to gives themselves up, and the refusal of the respective states to cooperate with the international court, is a source of 'irritation' to many.
As you say, you usually leave the politics to other forums and I think you would be well advised to do so in future.
Paul
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Post by Peter Ellis on Sept 26, 2005 15:58:10 GMT 1
The whole thing is highly political, with justice coming second and the interference in EU membership by a minority of people has no democratic basis. Economics and strategic considerations seem more to the fore. Mrs del Ponte is not God and has already been removed from the Ruanda hearings.
No doubt all three are well aware that if they can remain at large long enough, the court is likely to be disbanded in due course anyway. Justice is not served by that either.
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Post by paulday on Sept 27, 2005 9:06:54 GMT 1
Whatever you think of Carla del Ponte, it is the ICTY Trial Chamber, not the Prosecutor's office, who hear cases at The Hague. Justice only "comes second" when those accused stay at large and the judges of the trial chamber are denied the opportunity to hear the cases in full and to reach a verdict.
Sadly EU membership appears to be the only 'carrot' that has made Croatia wake up and recognise its' international obligations ... in the same way that vast packages of international aid seem to be an effective means to grab Serbia's attention. Don't forget that elements of the security services of both Croatia and Serbia have been (and in some cases probably still are) complicit in harbouring suspected war criminals and avoiding cooperation with the International Tribunal.
And of course the real victims are the hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians who suffered as a result of the conflicts of the former Yugoslavia - and it they who deserve justice. Bringing those individuals responsible for war crimes to account is an essential part of the post-conflict reconcilliation process.
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Post by Peter Ellis on Sept 27, 2005 14:51:50 GMT 1
EU membership would appear to be a poor carrot for most Croatians. According to the latest figures only one in three Croatians now favour joining.
I don't doubt the relevance of justice for the victims, but on the other hand the war was 10yrs ago and most of the victims have been painfully reconstructing their lives. Those who have returned to places like Lika are more likely to be interested in a stable environment than one where popular support for Gotovina is rekindling some nationalism and making life harder for them. Risking their wellbeing for a nebulous justice that is only applied erratically hardly seems fair. It actually undoes some of the reconciliation that had been achieved.
Few Japanese were prosecuted after WWII, Harris's terror bombing of civilian areas of Germany in direct contravention of Portals' orders went unpunished and of course recent American strongarming of weaker states in to agreeing that Americans could not be proseceuted as war criminals makes a mockery of it all. It is suggested in some quarters that fear of Americans being dragged in as co-defendants with Gotovina was one of the triggers to the Americans taking the initiative in barring proseceution of their nationals as war criminals.
Lest this discussion leave anyone with the wrong impression, Istra was not a war zone and people from all over the former Jugoslavia lived and still live here and get on perfectly well together. We have clients whose backgrounds are from all over former Jugoslavia and there are no ethnic problems in Istra. Areas like Lika and Krajina, where there was fighting, and where reconciliation has been slowly developing, are a long way from here and are not frequented by tourists much anyway.
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Post by paulday on Sept 28, 2005 11:22:26 GMT 1
I fully agree about Istra ... it's a wonderful place and noticeably detached from the madness that occurred elsewhere in the former Yugoslavia.
But I cannot accept the argument that because international criminal law is not yet being fully and equally implemented, it should not be implemented at all. It is akin to arguing that since a state's authorities do not arrest and prosecute all burglars, they should not arrest and prosecute any!
Yes, there are gross inconsistencies and contradictions in the application of international justice. The US government's policy with regard to the international criminal court is indefensible and the list of those who are not being held to account for their actions - Russian army generals in Chechnya for example - is long.
But heinous, appalling crimes were committed during the wars in the former Yugoslavia and it is essential to bring the people responsible to justice is there is to be true reconciliation.
There will always be those who will attempt to rekindle nationalist passions by falsely portraying this process as a prosecution of the Croatian nation. But individuals not peoples commit war crimes and, in Croatia's case, a separation has to be made between the legitimate military actions of Operations Flash and Storm, rightly celebrated as great military victories, and the illegitimate war crimes committed against civilians as part of those operations. And if Ante Gotovina is guilty of war crimes then he must be held to account.
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